Wednesday, September 28, 2011

Burrell Ellis Sides Against Us

For years we have suffered through no pay raises, no cost of living increases, forced work for no pay, furlough days, loss of paid holidays, loss of promotional pay and the possibility of our pension contribution increasing by 100%. Burrell Ellis and the commissioners have done nothing but take, take and take.

For once, some of the county commissioners listened to us about our choice of healthcare options. Collectively, we told them we are willing to pay more out of our pockets for more, and to some, better healthcare options, in particularly, Cigna HMO. Burrell Ellis says no!

Even Bonita Ransom, Director of Human Resources, an outsider, says “Employees have not gotten a salary increase; there have been no new perks.” “We wanted to find a way to make an effort to do something for employees that at the same time minimizes the county’s cost.”

Burrell Ellis has shown time and time again his total disregard for the police and other county employees. Even when we say we are willing to pay more for a “perk”, he says no. It makes us wonder if he lays awake at night thinking of ways to screw us.

Even Commissioner Elaine Boyer says “The employees will think that we have duped them and jerked the insurance out from under them.”

No kidding.

Click here for AJC article.

54 comments:

Anonymous said...

Are u serious!!!!!!!! You have taken so much from us and we can't even get good health care. We might as well go sit down at grady and wait. The one thing the boc agrees on and the ceo says no "WHY" are we not good enough for it cause it will put more on tax paying citizens. Last I check some of us are those tax paying citizens. We hve to work 2 and 3 parttime job just to make sure you families are taking care of but he sits on his &%$ and laughs. Well I hope this will be the end of these my LE brothers and sister we have to fight this we can't sit back anymore or we will be working for just about 500. Let's get to the meeting let our voice be heard support the FOP and let do all we can because this has to be ILLEGAL FED TIME. We have to find our resources and find this out. I hope I'm not the only on PISSED.
Be safe

Anonymous said...

Well you have been pretty hard on Ellis. Did you REALLY expect a different outcome? Buy a plan of your choosing. "Perks" are a thing of the past in our modern economy in case you haven't been paying attention, especially in Dekalb.

Anonymous said...

I can almost bet my last dollar that before the next Board Meeting
he will say what he proposed is
not good. And he will go along
with what the employees want. Then
he will think he has done something
good.
And, everyone (he hopes) will see
him as a good guy. And some will
see him as that.
I have a bridge to sell you if you go along with this guy.

Anonymous said...

With the current Cigna plan, employees refuse to go see the doctor because the out of pocket expenses are too steep. So now, employees suck up the minor aches and pains until it develops into something more serious. Then that employee will be out of work much longer, the expenses are higher, and others have to cover that person's absence. Oh, the furlough/not paid holiday wasn't one day off, it was almost a 10% pay deduction. So again, we got bent over and screwed. The BOC misrepresented the "not getting paid holiday" crap and took more than what they said.

Anonymous said...

"The DeKalb County Commission was ready to pay nearly $1.6 million more for employee health care next year but delayed voting Tuesday after the county executive called for the county to pay more of the cost of care so that employees can pay less."

From the way AJC has written the article, it appears the CEO wants employees to pay less. I'm just saying.

Anonymous said...

My goodness. Can you people learn to use correct spelling and proper grammar. No wonder the BOC doesn't listen to you. You can't even type full correct sentences. I hope your reports are better than this nonsense you put on this blog.

Anonymous said...

anon 10:59, is that all you have to say, if so stay off the blog.

Anonymous said...

TO ANON 10:59 WOW

Anonymous said...

From the AJC article . The BOC was ready to spend $1.6 mm more. But then Sir Spendalot (Burrell) chimed in "...the county executive called for the county to pay more of the cost of care so that employees can pay less."

So... employees will pay LESS if Burrell gets his way. This is the usual game. BOC tries to look like it is thrifty. Then Burrell comes in and asks for more. Then BOC agrees to more in a vote in which the higher amount is agreed on but which is disguised in the vote (or Commissioner Johnson mumbles) so that the taxpayers do not know it. This is what happened in the last 4.5 mil tax increase.

So.. central and north DK taxpayers will see another tax increase next year. The assessed values of South DK homes will be further decreased so that they do not get hit with the millage increase. A death spiral game.

Anonymous said...

Employees may pay less for the insurance, but it's so damn bad that the out of pocket expenses make it much more expensive. I agree with the comment that people are now waiting to see the dr. until it's more serious. I haven't even hit my deductible yet. This county and it's leaders suck. They don't care about their employees and never will.

Anonymous said...

Why is anyone surprised at what Burell Ellis does. The man is a whimply midget lying crook with his own agenda and nothing else. He has managed to convince 99% of the board of crooks to go along with anything asks for and those blooming idiots automatically say "yes".

I, as a taxpayer wouldn't be surprised that after his first term is over with, he will run again and use this as a steping stone for another elected office.

You cannot change the feathers of a bird just because you do not like the colors. With Burrell Ellis, all he does is change his clothing, but he is still a lying, cheating worm who doesn't care about anything but himself, and that is the truth no matter what language you say it in !!!

Anonymous said...

Saw the seniors in Snellville again today. WTF?

Anonymous said...

To anon 10:54 Yes, Ellis is planning to run again. In fact, he is already holding fundraisers. And, did you know Vermin is also planning to run for CEO? He's on the phone making phone calls already. Lord forbid! That's all we need! For him to come back as CEO and bring back Tebo... what a nightmare!

Anonymous said...

Blogmaster you missed this tidbit!

From The Crossroads News

Stogner gets new contract with salary
by Mary Swint Cross Roads News
5 days ago | 167 views | 1 | 1 | |

Richard Stogner
slideshow Richard Stogner’s free labor to the county is over.

Stogner, who returned to his old office in the Maloof Building as DeKalb County executive assistant in September 2010 to work for a year for free, has a new contract to work through June 2012, but this time with a salary.

Under the new agreement, approved by the DeKalb Board of Commissioners on Sept. 13, Stogner will receive a gross salary of $16,039 per month from Sept. 15 to Dec. 31 this year.

In 2012, his gross monthly salary will not exceed $16,039 in any month and his total salary will not exceed $96,234.

He will be limited to working six months or less in 2012.

Stogner, who served as executive assistant during the Vernon Jones administration, left county employment in December 2008. His one-year volunteer contract expired Sept. 14.

Stogner said he opted to continue to work as executive assistant under the provisions of a Home Rule amendment to the Pension Code adopted after the county’s early retirement program.

The commissioners adopted the amendment in August 2010 to facilitate the part-time, temporary rehiring of retired county employees with valuable institutional knowledge.

The amendment allows a retired DeKalb employee to work for the county part time while receiving pension benefits after Aug. 31, 2010.

However, the employee is limited to working 1,040 hours in a calendar year and his county salary or wages cannot exceed 50 percent of his last pre-retirement annual base salary.

If the retiree exceeds the hours worked or salary, his benefits would be discontinued for the remainder of the year. The amendment also limits the temporary work to three years, which do not have to be consecutive.

Stogner’s new contract says he will not be allowed to work more than 1,040 hours during the remainder of 2011 or in 2012, so he will qualify as a part-time employee under the Pension Code. He will not accrue or use annual leave or sick leave under the new contract.

Anonymous said...

I remember his first day on the job as a Commish... You know what they say about 1st impressions?! Let's just say I wasn't very impressed!

Then I remember one time during a BOC meeting where he was presiding, he stopped the meeting, told the poor PD officer to go tell the 3 ladies smoking out on the bench to stop... Why he felt the need to enforce the No Smoking policy during a meeting I don't know! I guess because he can! Everyone in attendence had a WTF smirk on the face!!! lol

This is another perfect example of Napolean Syndrome?! It just never stops!!!

Anonymous said...

You guys do understand that 90% of Dekalb residents support, Jones's, Ellis's, and Stgner's "AGENDA" right? Bringing awareness to it only solicits more support for them. This is a losing battle and the war has been over for some time. Get out of Dekalb before the final implosion.

Anonymous said...

One more reason to eliminate the CEO position. Most county commissioners make decisions and have their county managers enforce them, but in DeKalb the CEO is frequently at odds with decisions by the commissioners. So DeKalb gets stuck with the two sides bickering but also quite often using disputes to create drama so they can disguise actions like this health care shenanigans. I think some of them secretly like the current set-up so they can mask their incompetence and corruption with all their in-fighting. The commissioners might be scared of having a county manager run things because then they would be solely responsible for all the big decisions. They couldn't blame things on the CEO and vice versa.

LoFlyer said...

Anon 1:32 I think your about 90 percent on target. I would love to know what Vernon Jones said to the commissioners in closed session several years back when the commissioners were discussing abolishing the CEO's position, something that only the GA legislature can do. Nothing was said about the discussion but the commissioners abruptly dropped the proposal with no explanation, and the metro media didn't inquire.
CEO Ellis's staff is the largest and highest paid in DeKalb history. The CEO's performance has been described as lazy and inefficient, and this incident would tend to illustrate the point.
Ellis and Gottlieb should of had these numbers either on hand or easily obtainable.
Mr. Ellis is playing the political game poorly in DeKalb government. He needs a good chief of staff, someone who will keep their pants or panties on, and work hard and smart for the county. Stognar is not producing.
My prediction is that Vernon Jones will be the next CEO.
My opinionated opinions.
Truly sux, mates!
KenC

Anonymous said...

As a tax payer in the county, I cant wait for the election to come around so that I can cast my vote for change.

Anonymous said...

Run Vernon run. Not one furlough day under you. Not half of the problems. Look at the facts.

Anonymous said...

To anonymous 9:05. The only thing vernon should do is run from Dekalb County. You need to look at the facts. Vernon is the reason we have suffered regarding many issues. Do not think for a second that he would be good for this County. I hope he is indicted soon! If you are that ignorant about the facts, do not comment on here!

Anonymous said...

Jones would have to retrieve most of his former command staff from the Federal Pen to get up and corrupting again but I'm POSITIVE he won't have a problem finding thugs in our current regime.

Anonymous said...

I agree with Anon 9:05. Vernon had his faults however, we did not have one furlough day under his watch. Run VJ Run.

Anonymous said...

Sept 30 9:05 - you are such a moron. Vermin WAS the worst thing that ever happened to this County, and he had plenty of money during those good times to line his pocket with.

Anonymous said...

Vernon is a convicted racist. The county wasted $15 million defending him and Stogner. Much of the mess were dealing with now is a result of Vernon. Ellis is lazy, incompetent, and hates police and fire. Two horrible CEO's, but horrible in their own ways.

Anonymous said...

Burrell Ellis is a real estate
lawyer. He is not a manager.When Vernon was CEO you knew where you
stood.And nobody was complaining about pay and dirty streets.
Sure Ellis would love to go to
Washington. Hank Johnson is not
going anywhere,and if Hank did who
will vote for SNEAKY PETE?

Anonymous said...

The Lone Ranger Predicts that if there is not a drastic change in the management philosophy in Dekalb government the cities that encompass a great deal of real-estate in the county will annex the rest of the tax base, leaving DEKALB county as inconsequential as south Fulton. And then the great B.O.C. will have little or nothing manage but some bloated departments that service crime ridden apartment complexes, hub cap heavens and furniture rental stores. The rest of the tax payers, businesses, good employees, people and money will go away! Ain't socialism great, ya'll never figured out that it does not work in the United States. Rock on!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Anonymous said...

Mark your calenders, the employee picnic is the first weekend in November. I hear they are going to have some great games like, pin the tail on the employee, an employee pinata and bobbing for pensions. Your commissioners will be there for you to get your picture taken with them and remember they can always use volunteers to help out. Come one, come all.

Anonymous said...

Vernon Jones went to roll calls and promised PD the world when he was running last time. Back then, we were getting 5% annual raises. He promised us better! Then when he was elected, he visited rolls calls and belittled officers, Sgts, and Lts. One officer I know of came to hear Vernon speak at a roll call after the officer had finished up his shift. The officers boots and pants were muddy after chasing a suspect and fighting with him in the woods. Did Vernon thank him for his hard work that day? No. Vernon called out the officer for showing up like that. I think his exact words were, "This is how you come to see your CEO?"

Under Vernon, the county attorney committed suicide. Vernon was accused of rape. Vernon was accused of shoving a female commissioner, Boyer. Vernon was accused of trespassing and disorderly conduct at the home of a citizen when he wouldn't leave her yard. Vernon tried to get Eddie Moody to lie to a grand jury for him to justify his exorbitant security detail. When Moody wouldn't, he was forced to resign. Vernon then hired a bumbling fool caught on tape making racially charged comments against white employees. Then Vernon hired a Gary Coleman look alike for Chief, someone who was fired from his last job as Chief for incompetence and corruption, someone who wasn't even in the 8 candidates recommended by an outside panel that reviewed all candidates. Let's not forget about Don Frank. As a Sgt, he illegally ran people on NCIC, which gets most people fired around here. Being good friends with Vernon though got him a slap on the wrist, a quick promotion to Lt, a quick jump to Major, and the to Assistant Chief! Where is Don Frank now? Awaiting federal sentencing for corruption! An assistant police chief was caught on tape telling an officer that he wasn't promoting Sgt's because too many of the next people to be promoted were white! The county lost a federal court case because Vernon and his administration had an agenda of doing away with white employees because they were, well, white. Black employees who though that was wrong were retaliated against by Vernon. They also sued and won.

Vernon promised PD the world when he ran. He screwed us over big time!

Ellis promised us nothing. He's delivered on the promise!

I guess either way, we're screwed. I think we'd be more screwed with Vernon though.

LoFlyer said...

Another skirmish with DK government, This is my 2011 EEO-4 public document FOIA request reply from DeKalb officials.
"Dear Mr. Choate:
This letter is written regarding your request received via electronic communication in the Office of Legal Counsel on September 27, 2011. In your request you sought EEO-4 federal government statistic and other open records acts. After careful review of your request we have identified that it is not a proper FOIA request. For your request to be considered a proper FOIA request, it must state that the request is being made under the provisions of the FOIA, reasonably describe the records needed and it must be made in accordance with EEOC FOIA regulations. Below is information on what is considered a proper FOIA request.

The Freedom of Information Act (FOIA), 5 U.S.C. section 552, is a statute that provides a process by which every person may request access to federal agency records or information. Federal agencies, such as the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, are required to disclose records upon receiving a written request for them unless those records are protected from disclosure by any of the nine exemptions and three exclusions of the FOIA. The FOIA applies only to federal agencies and the records in their custody. The FOIA does not create an access to records held by Congress, the courts or by state and local governments. Any requests for state or local government records should be directed to the appropriate state or local government agency.

Please resubmit your request as a FOIA request. When writing to us indicate in your letter that you are seeking a “Freedom of Information Act” request. You may also visit our website at www.eeoc.gov, to review the entire guide under FOIA/Privacy Act. We hope this information is helpful to you.

Cordially,

Lori K. Bowden

Information Specialist

FOIA Programs"

Make up your own minds why DeKalb is refusing the same request they allowed me last year. Media please keep heads buried in sand. The EEO-4 results will not fit your agenda or talking points espoused by the DNC.

Sent a new request based on the Georgia Open Records Act. (What I should of done in the first place).
I will be out of town next week, I'll update when I return.

Best of luck mates!
KenC

Anonymous said...

Regarding the county employee picnic, sure I will volunteer. I volunteer to NOT BE THERE!!!

Anonymous said...

Did you notice Open Enrollment only lasts for two weeks.Oct 17 - 31. You think it's been a mess the last few years, just wait, this year's will be Hell !! Probably won't even have the info by the time it starts and it will be over by the time we get it !

Anonymous said...

Vernon is a RAPIST.....ENOUGH SAID

Anonymous said...

Volunteers Needed .....I appreciate you and need you to staff the picnic I'm throwing for you.

What a joke .

Anonymous said...

Ok let’s look at some hard facts - not innuendo. Most of you clowns that post on this blog to vent about things you can’t change because you can’t vote in this county. You come here to vent about stuff you have no factual knowledge about. What crimes has Vernon been convicted of???? At this point he hasn’t even been charged w/ anything! People that never worked for him directly sued him for creating a hostile working environment, and he has never met them. To this date he has never paid out one red cent. Now, under Vernon’s watch MPO’s got a $5,000.00 bonus and most jobs in the Police and Fire Department’s got reclassified, that means a higher pay grade. @ the person that called a poster ignorant for stating a fact: look at the definition please. You can’t use that word to describe a person for posting valid FACTS. Maybe you wanted to use the word intelligent. You see, what’s true and what you believe to be true are usually totally different, that’s a fact. You might not like Vernon but compare him and Ellis. Another fact under Vernon, the county had a triple AAA bond rating and if I know you guys you’re going to say George Bush is the reason for that. To this day Vernon has not been indicted for any crime. The FBI has a Public Corruption Unit call them up with your facts, I’m sure they would just love to hear from you. Opppops the only problem is you’re just going to repeat some stuff that has no merit and certainly they can’t use that. Post your facts and let’s have some fun!!!

Anonymous said...

To anon 10:13. Bobbing for pensions that's a good one.
To anyone that thinks Vermin would be good for the county, then you haven't read this blog over the years. Let's not forget that he reduced being vested in the pension from 10 years to 3 years, so that those appointed by him, with their bloated salaries, could qualify. He was so racist. There is nothing to prevent him from bringing Bolton back if he were elected to CEO.

Anonymous said...

Welcome to the blog, Vernon!

"Never convicted of anything."

Spoken like a true perp!

Vernon lost the federal lawsuit. He was found guilty by a federal jury of creating a racist, hostile work environment. It doesn't matter that Vernon never met the employees who sued. Nice try! He didn't have to meet them to create a hostile, racist work environment for them. The orders came from the top, from Vernon, to do away with white employees. He didn't need to meet them for that to happen. The fact that he hasn't paid one red cent doesn't change the fact that he was ordered to by a federal jury for being a racist! That just means he doesn't obey court orders!

I noticed none of the issues with Vernon were addressed other than to say, "never convicted." Interesting that those were ignored by the "anonymous Vernon defender!"

Anonymous said...

The writer is obviously uneducated qnd lives in a trailer park....Snuffy Smith's cousin in uniform. Vernon ensured we received raises, etc. And the pension vesting was set at 3 years long before Vernon arrived. By the way, employee vesting period was changed from 3 to 7 years under Vernon by the pension board and commissioner 9/2005. The CEO does not have the authority to chamge the pension plan. You are factless again. Go get some facts and stop emoting from your trailer. Your GED is showing...be quiet and no one may not notice!

Anonymous said...

Lots of great things happened during Vernon's years in office! The European Space Agency landed the Huygens probe on the surface of Titan, the Statue of Liberty reopened in 2004 with improved security, the summer Olympics were held in Athens, Greece, in 2002 the U.N. security council unanimously approved an arms embargo and froze the assets of Osama Bin Laden, disgraced FBI agent Robert Hansen was sentenced to life in prison, in 2006 the human genome project published its last sequence. My God, look at all the great things that happened during the Vernon Jones years! Could any of these things have happened if someone else was CEO of DeKalb County GA?

Anonymous said...

How do you sound like a perp when you say a person has not been charged? Thats a FACT. You people act like because you read it on this BLOG its true. Most of the stuff you read is someones opinion. As far as the Rape. An investigation was done and it was determined no crime took place.
To say that Tebo would return is just crazy. ask your self this what has changed since he left? NOTHING MUCH! we are still doing the same things he put in place. And one thing I can say, he did fight for us. Not much of that going on now. Things that make you say HMMMMMMMMMM. We get bad news every other week and you clowns still say ROCK on OB and thats not OBAMA, I know you all make over 250,00 a year.

Anonymous said...

How does Vernon sounds like a perp? You're kidding, right?

Well, for starters, innocent people don't say things like "I beat that charge" or "I've never been charged." Innocent people say things like "Those allegations are completely false." See the difference?

But forget the alleged criminal activity, what about the other allegations made in that post about Vernon that are 100% FACT? Promising better raises, then cutting them, belittling people in roll calls, protecting Don Frank, an admitted dirty cop etc...???

Anonymous said...

10:12 - I am a citizen and you make me wanna puke. The fact that Vermin has gotten away with so much is a testament to his devious nature, not his innocence. I have known him for many years, and do not take MY information from the blog, yet read a lot of confirmation of what I already knew to be true. You're obviously someone he's paid off. Go somewhere else to defend him, because NOBODY on here is gonna buy what you're selling.

Anonymous said...

Ok let’s look at a few things. Why should a person do a dog and pony show saying they are innocent, especially when they have not been charged. Is that to make you feel better? Let’s look at the raise issue we went from 3 percent to 5 percent. Now lets look at what we have now. We have not gotten any raises in a few years only if you got promoted and that was reduced from 10 percent to 5 percent. We have taken several furlough days. Our health care plan has changed and it goes on. Who are we going to blame for this? If we can blame Jones for this we can blame Bush for Obama’s problems, I didn’t think you would fall for that. The only thing I ask people is you look at the good hard facts. I’m no Tebo fan but he fought for us. What are we getting now?

To the person that claim they have known Vernon for many years do you know him or do you know of him? I will say to you if you have information report it to the proper authorities. You can form an opinion about a person about stuff you read. Do this in a future homeboy do your own research and don’t depend on this blog for your information. Nobody paid me off im just looking at facts so should you.

Anonymous said...

Oh get real! 5% raises used to be the norm. Vernon promised us better, then he got in office and screwed us over! If you got a 5% raise under Vernon, you were in his inner circle, like Don Frank or Curtis Williams. Vernon didn't to shit for us!

Anonymous said...

Hope that 5% helps them out in prison. They'd fare better getting a 5% elasticity increase in their bong-hole.

Anonymous said...

LoFlyer I don't think DeKalb County has an Office of Legal Council. That sounds like the Federal Government, which would make sense if you requested a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request with the federal EEOC department. I think you even quoted the U.S. Code that governs requests from federal agencies.

It looks like in the fed's response, they directed you back to the county. If that is the case they you should request the county's EEO report from Human Resources. If you haven't already done this, then you would probably use the Georgia Open Records Act request. Since these were due to the EEOC on Sep 30, they probably just finished this report. It sounds like you had luck earlier in the year getting the report from the new HR director, so hopefully they will work with you again.

Anonymous said...

We had 5% raises until part-way through Vernon's first term. I think it changed to 2% in 2003unless, apparently you were one of the chosen few. That was during good financial times that they took away money from our raises. Now that times are tough, they've stopped them altogether.

Anonymous said...

Like I said look at the facts will give you a little replay. Under Jones MPO's got a 5000.00 bonus, now you do the math. There was a reclassification of jobs, that was good for the all department's have you gotten a raise lately? What has Ellis done for you? He gave us Ms.Ransom. As far as Franks has he named Jones in any wrong doing? The answer is NO. It seems to me you guys hate facts but I'm going to hold your feet to the fire." The Painful Truth"

Anonymous said...

Other people have named wrong doings by Jones. I guess it is just convenient for you to ignore those comments here. How about addressing his his pompous attitude? Who remembers him entering commision meetings with "Hail to the Chief" blasting? $5000 bonus? Once, you near sighted fool. We lost a lot more than that when he cut our raises. How about the way he treated employees? How about the way he talked down to police officers during roll calls? How about a federal court ruling he was at the top of a racist plan to do away with as many white managers as possible? You gloss over that and say "he hasn't paid one cent.". That doesn't change the FACT that he LOST the case and the federal court ruled he was a racist. Vernon was awful. Anyone who says otherwise was in his inner circle and was is also aj awful person.

Anonymous said...

How about when VJ used to have his "protection detail" enter Major Felony clearing the area with their ear pieces thinking they were the Secrete Service? What a bunch of buffoons. I used to think as a detective then, 4 years of college to work around these idiots all day? SO glad I got out of that dump to have a real career. Best of luck guys, you're going to need it.

Anonymous said...

Man I always heard you can't argue with a fool. Its a big difference between fact and rumor. Also voter and non voter. What have we gotten in the past 2.5 years? We have gotten a lot taken away and we have been screwed a lot. But your hate for a person prevents you from looking at the facts. That's called tunnel vision. Again please look at the facts and let's debate. Right now you're just bringing hear say and no facts. If I'm wrong I can admit it you cant

Anonymous said...

It's not a rumor when I saw it myself and my friends also saw it. Nice attempt at dodging the facts!! Vernon created a hostile, racist workplace. Fact, not rumor. Vernon wad rude and disrespectful at roll calls. Fact, not rumor. Vernon promised better raises, then cut them. Fact, not rumor. Vernon had an excessive security detail. Fact,not rumor.

Anonymous said...

Believe me when I tell you Ellis isn't only screwing police and other County employees. He's screwing the entire population of DeKalb residents, just to better himself. Everyone who knows him knows this to be true.

Anonymous said...

We're not getting any pay increases, but the MPOs are still getting the $5000 bonus. I probably shouldn't say that because it might be taken from us too. Will that be there when I get there?